lucky2103
Senior Member
Es ist doch ein Unterschied, ob man von ein paar Gestörten verfolgt wird, oder ob die Progrome staatlich sanktioniert sind, denn da gibt keinen Ausweg.
x-pat" said:Ich habe eigentlich gehofft, dass Menschenrechtsverletzungen in Thailand unter einer Regierung der Demokraten ausbleiben. Nun hat sich in den ersten Monten der neuen Regierung leider schon das Gegenteil bewiesen. Kann in diesem Land nicht eine einzige Partei vernüftig regieren? Wenn man den Militärs einen Freibrief für Immigrantenbeseitigung ausstellt, dann kann doch von "regieren" kaum die Rede sein. Es hat eher den Anschein, dass die Dinge "außer Kontrolle" sind. Die Haltung der Regierung, die Verleugnungen, und die unwillige Kooperation und Aufklärung des Vorfalls sind ebenso abstoßend, wie der Massenmord an den Rohingyas durch die Thai Marine selbst.![]()
Cheers, X-Pat
Sicherlich nicht. Das Flüchtlingsproblem ist nicht neu, und die UNHCR hat auch schon lange eine Niederlassung in Thailand. Habe selbst einmal dort für ein Projekt gearbeitet. Es gibt in Thailand auch existierende Verfahren für Flüchtlinge, aber was in der Andaman See vorgefallen ist, ist nicht akzeptabel.Samuianer" said:Das Problem mit den Rohingyias ist nicht erst dieser Tage entstanden...
Ich laste das nicht der Regierung sondern dem Militär an. Der Regierung -insbesonder Abhisit persönlich- laste ich die Intention an, diesen Vorfall zu vertuschen, abzuwiegeln, und unter den Teppich kehren zu wollen. Das geht aus Abhisit's Aussagen zu dem Thema klar hervor. Die Untersuching wurde ja erst angeordnet, als der die Beweislage erdrückend are und der Vorfall bereits durch die Presse ging.Samuianer" said:Das ausschliesslich der gerade ins Amt gewaehlten Regierung anlasten zu wollen, halte ich fuer ein wenig ueberzogen...
x-pat" said:Sicherlich nicht. Das Flüchtlingsproblem ist nicht neu, und die UNHCR hat auch schon lange eine Niederlassung in Thailand. Habe selbst einmal dort für ein Projekt gearbeitet. Es gibt in Thailand auch existierende Verfahren für Flüchtlinge, aber was in der Andaman See vorgefallen ist, ist nicht akzeptabel.Samuianer" said:Das Problem mit den Rohingyias ist nicht erst dieser Tage entstanden...
Ich laste das nicht der Regierung sondern dem Militär an. Der Regierung -insbesonder Abhisit persönlich- laste ich die Intention an, diesen Vorfall zu vertuschen, abzuwiegeln, und unter den Teppich kehren zu wollen. Das geht aus Abhisit's Aussagen zu dem Thema klar hervor. Die Untersuching wurde ja erst angeordnet, als der die Beweislage erdrückend are und der Vorfall bereits durch die Presse ging.Samuianer" said:Das ausschliesslich der gerade ins Amt gewaehlten Regierung anlasten zu wollen, halte ich fuer ein wenig ueberzogen...
Cheers, X-Pat
http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2009/01/27/regional/regional_30094280.phpBurma to help Thailand on Rohingyas : Gen Songkitti
By Thai News Agency, The Nation
Burma's military leaders agreed to help Thailand solve the problem of the Rohingyas, an ethnic Muslim minority group from Burma, who risked uncertain passage on the high seas to seek work or asylum in the kingdom, Thai Supreme Commander Gen. Songkitti Jaggabatara.
Gen Songkitti, who has returned from Burma, said that he met Burma's Vice Chairman of the ruling State Peace and Development Council (SPDC) and Army Chief Deputy Senior General Muang Aye and had discussed the rohingya problem.
[highlight=yellow:4a53c7026a]He said that Gen Muang Mye had accepted Thailand's request to help address the rohingya issue even though the rohingya ethnic group was not on the official list of 120 ethnic minorities in Burma.[/highlight:4a53c7026a]
Initially, however, he indicated that Burma would cooperate by preventing the rohingya from approaching Thai territory.
Royal Thai Navy has been under criticism after international media reported claims that the Thai armed forces had mistreated the Rohingyas.
http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2009/01/21/regional/regional_30093801.php]Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva requested the investigation in to the Rohingya push-back case after talking to human rights groups at a meeting Monday at which the issue was raised.
Thai Army Commander-in-Chief General Anupong Paochinda, while confirming Tuesday that the military will conduct the investigation, at the same time said he was confident no abuses had been committed against the Rohingya.[/b]
Das andere ist mir mehr odewr weniger bekannt.Schmutzkampagne gegen Thailand?
General Manat Kongpan, der schon einer der Befehlshaber bei dem Massaker von Tak Bai 2004 war, und zuletzt damit beauftragt war, das „Rohingya-Problem“ zu lösen, wies alle Schuld von sich.
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Hinter Thailands Land-des-Lächelns-Fassade liegt eine schwarze Historie brutaler Unterdrückung. In den 70er Jahren gab es beim Militär antikommunistische Todesschwadronen, Tausende mutmaßlicher Kommunisten wurden 1972 in Pattalung lebendig in Ölfässern fritiert.
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für die Militärübergriffe war Thaksin sicher nicht haftbar zu machen, jedoch für die Polizei-Übergriffe beim Drogenkrieg schon.Auch wenn einige immer wieder versuchen, die gerade regierenden Spitzenpoliker - ob nun Thaksin oder Abhisit - für derlei Vorfälle haftbar zu machen,
Changnam43" said:Ich weiss, der "TIP" ist hier bei einigen nicht besonders beliebt, aber das hier ist interessant. Besonders der Wahrheitsgehalt eines Teiles der Meldung interessiert mich.
Das andere ist mir mehr odewr weniger bekannt.Schmutzkampagne gegen Thailand?
General Manat Kongpan, der schon einer der Befehlshaber bei dem Massaker von Tak Bai 2004 war, und zuletzt damit beauftragt war, das „Rohingya-Problem“ zu lösen, wies alle Schuld von sich.
.
.
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Hinter Thailands Land-des-Lächelns-Fassade liegt eine schwarze Historie brutaler Unterdrückung. In den 70er Jahren gab es beim Militär antikommunistische Todesschwadronen, Tausende mutmaßlicher Kommunisten wurden 1972 in Pattalung lebendig in Ölfässern fritiert.
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Aber von dem hier habe ich noch nichts gehoert.
Weiss jemand naeheres?
vollstaendige Meldung TIP
MFA (Thai Ministry of Foreign Affairs) :
The Issue of Illegal Migrants in the Andaman Sea
January 28, 2009, 8:57 am
The issue of illegal migrants in the Andaman Sea, of which the Rohingyas are the biggest group, is one which Thailand, and other countries in the region, has been facing for a number of years. More recently, the flows have numbered several thousands each year, with the number of arrests rising four-fold since 2007. Estimates point out that up to 20,000 such illegal migrants presently remain in Thailand, and the difficulties we have faced in dealing with this "floating population" reflect some of the complexity of the issue. The situation of the Rohingyas reflects that of economic migrants searching for a better life in countries in the region.
As with many countries in the region and elsewhere, we have refused entry to illegal migrants entering the Kingdom. Legal channels exist for employment in Thailand, but accepting those arriving in an irregular manner would simply encourage new arrivals. Thailand has long been pragmatic in dealing with these groups, but large inflows in recent years have tested our absorption capacity. In fact, there is no shortage of unscrupulous agents, smugglers and traffickers in the region waiting to take advantage of the opportunities offered by such flows. Furthermore, given that boat arrivals are comprised of large numbers of adult males, safeguarding the property and safety of the local population requires that concerned officials take appropriate measures in accordance with Thai law.
Irregular movements affect countries in many regions of the world. In the Americas, in Europe, in East Africa, and in the Asia-Pacific, countries are faced with illegal migration by sea. In order to exercise control and surveillance over its maritime zones in accordance with international law, Thailand strictly adheres to applicable international legal norms, especially the UN Convention on the Law of the Sea (UNCLOS) articles 21, 25 and 33, which uphold the right of coastal states in preventing the infringement of their immigration laws and regulations within their territorial waters and contiguous zone.
In addition, the Protocol Against the Smuggling of Migrants by Land, Air and Sea, supplementing the UN Convention against Transnational Organized Crime of 2000, which Thailand has signed, provides that if there are reasonable grounds to suspect that a vessel which is without nationality is engaged in the smuggling of migrants by sea, State Parties shall take appropriate measures in accordance with relevant domestic and international law.
Concerning the case in point, there is no reasonable ground to believe that these illegal migrants fled from their country of origin for well-founded fear of being persecuted. Their profile and their seasonal travel further support the picture that they are illegal migrants, and not those requiring international protection under the Convention relating to the Status of Refugees of 1951.
The Thai authorities have been implementing measures to deal with this complex issue of illegal migration, further complicated by the long length of the Andaman coastline through which illegal migrants are seeking entry, and the limited resources available. In the first place, all new arrivals that are detected along the coastline would be stopped, questioned and have their needs assessed. If no evidence is found of their involvement in smuggling activities, they would be supported in terms of basic humanitarian needs before undergoing repatriation or escorted out of Thai territory in accordance with Thai laws. In cases where there are grounds for believing their involvement in smuggling activities, they would undergo a thorough investigation before being repatriated or escorted out in accordance with Thai laws. And where the encounter happens at sea, such persons will be assisted in terms of basic needs to enable them to go on their course in safety. In these processes, a humane treatment and upholding basic human rights is a guiding principle for all involved. Given the already enormous burden of 3 million illegal migrants present in Thailand, we cannot afford to be a country of destination or a country of transit for irregular movements, with their impacts in social and economic as well as in security terms.
As for the serious allegations raised in the various reports and interviews, including that various forms of mistreatment were inflicted on the illegal migrants and that intentional damage was done to their boats or their engines, this must be categorically denied as having no place in policy and procedures. Nevertheless, should concrete evidence be presented, the Thai Government would seriously look into such cases and further verification carried out. Indeed, despite the various difficulties involved, we have upheld our humanitarian tradition and ensured that new arrivals are adequately provided with food, water and medicines, with necessary repairs to their boats.
We further note that this issue has to be addressed at source, at the social and economic conditions in the areas of origin. And as the problem has a regional dimension, with onward movements and the involvement national and transnational criminal networks, it requires cooperation. It does not involve one particular country, but is a collective problem that the concerned countries, whether countries of origin or first destination, countries of transit and countries of destination, should address collectively and in a coordinated manner. Thailand has already committed itself to such efforts, and will continue to welcome cooperation on this issue, including the contribution of relevant international organizations. Indeed, if the problem is solved at its source through the mobilization of resources of the international community by the relevant international organizations, then there would not be the problem of economic migrants having had to make a perilous journey to reach Southeast Asian shores.
In this regard, dialogues between Thailand and the UNHCR and the IOM on the issue of the illegal migrants in the Andaman Sea have been ongoing for quite some time. We have made it clear that for Thailand, this issue is one of economic migrants, while expressing a readiness to work with all concerned. In this regard, Thailand stands ready to cooperate with relevant international organizations such as the UNHCR, IOM and others which may assist the countries concerned to address this issue, in accordance with their respective mandates. Furthermore, the Minister of Foreign Affairs looks forward to discussing this issue, and Thailand's long-standing humanitarian cooperation with the UNHCR, with High Commissioner for Refugees Guterres when they meet in Geneva on 2 February 2009. And as the UNHCR may be restricted in its mandate on this matter, Thailand will also consult with the IOM on its specific mandate of assisting migrants.
In addition to our consultations with the related international organizations, Thailand has also proposed to the countries affected by this problem of illegal migration in the Andaman Sea to set up a contact group among these countries to coordinate short and long term measures to resolve this issue.
Thailand's track record reveals itself being faced with a succession of massive flows of people from neighbouring countries. Given remaining disparities in economic development, the search for a better life will continue to drive further movements into Thailand. We are trying to address the many social, economic and security issues involved in the current challenging economic climate. But our 40 year old humanitarian role deserves greater recognition in approaching this difficult issue.
http://www.mfa.go.th/web/35.php?id=21665
was schreibst du für ein bockmist, die dinge sind jetzt in der drastischen form aufgetreten und die demokraten unterstützen das.Samuianer" said:das es JETZT an die Oeffentlichkeit kam, wird mit der von den Demokraten gefuehrten Regierung zusammenhaengen

Auf jeden Fall hat der Abhisit jetzt ja wieder einen recht "erfreulichen" Diskussionsstoff, wenn er nächsten Monat nach Europa kommt.Samuianer" said:...
Concerning the case in point, there is no reasonable ground to believe that these illegal migrants fled from their country of origin for well-founded fear of being persecuted. Their profile and their seasonal travel further support the picture that they are illegal migrants, and not those requiring international protection under the Convention relating to the Status of Refugees of 1951.
*****Ging ja auch nicht, Thailand hat ja nie unterschrieben.
And where the encounter happens at sea, such persons will be assisted in terms of basic needs to enable them to go on their course in safety.
***** Die Vorwürfe lauten, dass sie zuerst ans Land gekommen wären und dann man sie wieder ins Meer zurückgeschleppt hätte.
As for the serious allegations raised in the various reports and interviews, including that various forms of mistreatment were inflicted on the illegal migrants and that intentional damage was done to their boats or their engines, this must be categorically denied as having no place in policy and procedures. Nevertheless, should concrete evidence be presented, the Thai Government would seriously look into such cases and further verification carried out. Indeed, despite the various difficulties involved, we have upheld our humanitarian tradition and ensured that new arrivals are adequately provided with food, water and medicines, with necessary repairs to their boats.
***** Vor ein paar Tagen hieß es noch, es wären gar keine gekommen. Nett, dass man nun prinzipiell bereit ist, gezielten Vorwürfen zu folgen. Das war aber schon in der letzten Woche angekündigt und vom Militär (von der Marine) sofort abgeblockt worden. Übrigens, nahezu überall in der Welt gehört so etwas keineswegs zu den Standards in Gesetz und Verwaltungsvorschriften = "this must be categorically denied as having no place in policy and procedures". Nur es kommt halt vor und was dann???
4 Affen?
moin,J-M-F" said:was schreibst du für ein bockmist,....
das militär hat jetzt freie hand wie schon lange nicht mehr, in der endkonsequenz
wird dadurch auch die korruption weiter zunehmen.....

Gerade weil hier immer gerne der Versuch unternommen wird, kritische Fragen einfach durch Zumüllen des threads "den Garaus zu machen" komme ich nun auch gerne auf den zweiten Teil Deiner Frage zurück.Changnam43" said:"Hinter Thailands Land-des-Lächelns-Fassade liegt eine schwarze Historie brutaler Unterdrückung. In den 70er Jahren gab es beim Militär antikommunistische Todesschwadronen, Tausende mutmaßlicher Kommunisten wurden 1972 in Pattalung lebendig in Ölfässern fritiert."